Talmud - Ta'anit 4b תענית ד׳ ב׳

that our mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua, who said that one mentions rain from the time of putting the lulav down, from the Eighth Day of Assembly, and it is not in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer. Rava said: Even if you say that the ruling of the mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, one can explain this by distinguishing between the terms: Requesting is a distinct notion and mentioning is another distinct notion, even according to the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer.

§ The mishna stated that Rabbi Yehuda says: With regard to the one who passes before the ark as prayer leader on the concluding Festival day of Sukkot, the Eighth Day of Assembly, the prayer leader of the additional prayer mentions rain, while the leader of the morning prayer does not. The reverse is the case at the conclusion of the period of mentioning rain, as the leader of the morning prayer mentions rain, while the one who leads the additional prayer does not.

And the Gemara raises a contradiction from a baraita (5a): Until when does one request rain? Rabbi Yehuda says: Until Passover has passed. Rabbi Meir says: Until the month of Nisan has passed. According to the baraita, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one prays for rain until the end of Passover, whereas the mishna states that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one prays for rain only until the beginning of the Festival.

Rav Ḥisda said: This is not difficult. The baraita here is referring to the request for rain, which continues until the end of Passover, whereas the mishna there rules that one is to mention rain only until the first Festival day. In other words, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one continues requesting rain until the end of Passover, but with regard to the mention of rain, already on the first day of the Festival one ceases to do so.

The Gemara raises a difficulty against this answer. Ulla said: That which Rav Ḥisda said is as difficult to accept “as vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke to the eyes” (Proverbs 10:26). He elaborates: If when one does not yet request rain, at the beginning of the rainy season, one nevertheless mentions rain; in a case when one requests rain, i.e., during Passover, according to this explanation, is it not right that one should also mention rain?

Rather, Ulla said an alternative resolution: In fact, two tanna’im expressed different rulings in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. According to one tanna, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one both mentions and requests rain during Passover, whereas according to the other tanna, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one neither mentions nor requests rain after the morning prayer of the first day of Passover.

The Gemara cites an additional resolution of the apparent contradiction. Rav Yosef said: What is the meaning of the phrase: Until Passover has passed [ya’avor]? It means: Until the first prayer leader who descends to pray has passed before the ark for the morning prayers on the first Festival day of Passover. According to this explanation, the mishna and baraita specify the same time period for the end of the mention and request for rain.

Abaye said to Rav Yosef: Is there a request for rain on a Festival? The request for rain is included in the ninth blessing of the Amida, the blessing of the years, which is not recited on Shabbat and Festivals. If the term Passover in the baraita is referring to the entire Festival, this includes the intermediate Festival days, during which the ninth blessing of the Amida is recited. However, according to your interpretation, the baraita refers only to the first day of the Festival, and yet the request for rain is not recited on this date.

The Gemara cites the response: Rav Yosef said to Abaye: Yes, the baraita is speaking of the first day of Passover. However, it does not refer to the request for rain recited in the Amida. Rather, the disseminator and translator of the Torah portion would recite a request for rain after the Festival prayers. The Gemara asks: But would a disseminator request a matter that the community does not need? As there is no need for rain on Passover, why would the disseminator recite a request for it? Rather, it is clear, as Ulla explained, there are two tannaitic versions of Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion.

Rabba said another explanation: What is the meaning of the phrase: Until Passover has passed? It means until after the time for the slaughter of the Paschal lamb has passed, the afternoon of the fourteenth of Nisan, i.e., until the beginning of Passover. And according to this opinion, the practice at the beginning of the time for praying for rain is like that of the end: Just as at the beginning of the rainy season one mentions rain although one does not request it, so too, at the end, on the first day of Passover, one mentions rain although one does not request it. The request for rain ends on the eve of Passover, while the mention of rain continues until the morning service the following day.

Abaye said to Rabba: Granted, at the beginning of the rainy season one mentions rain before requesting it, as mentioning rain is also an appeasement to God in advance of the forthcoming request. However, at the end of the season, what appeasement toward a request is there that would necessitate the mention of rain after one has ceased requesting it? The Gemara again concludes: Rather, it is clear as Ulla explained.

Rabbi Asi said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: The halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Asi: And did Rabbi Yoḥanan actually say that? But didn’t we learn in a mishna (6a): On the third of Marḥeshvan one starts to request rain. Rabban Gamliel says: One starts on the seventh of Marḥeshvan. And with regard to this mishna, Rabbi Elazar, Rabbi Yoḥanan’s preeminent student, said: The halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabban Gamliel.

Rabbi Asi said to Rabbi Zeira: Are you raising a contradiction from the statement of one man against the statement of another man? Although Rabbi Elazar was Rabbi Yoḥanan’s student, their opinions need not be consistent with one another. If you wish, say instead that this is not difficult, as Rabbi Elazar’s ruling here is referring to the request for rain, which begins on the seventh of Marḥeshvan, whereas Rabbi Yoḥanan’s ruling there is referring to the mention of rain, which begins on the Eighth Day of Assembly.

The Gemara asks: But didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan say: At the same time when one requests rain, one mentions it. The Gemara answers: That ruling was stated only with regard to ceasing the request and mention of rain. Although Rabbi Yoḥanan maintains that one stops requesting and mentioning rain on the same date, he does not hold that one begins to do both at the same time. The Gemara objects: But didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan explicitly say: When one begins to mention rain, one begins to request it; and when one ceases to request rain, one ceases to mention it. This clearly indicates that, in his opinion, there is no discrepancy between the dates when one begins reciting the two formulations.

The Gemara answers: Rather, it is not difficult. This statement, where Rabbi Elazar ruled in accordance with the opinion of Rabban Gamliel, is for us, who live in Babylonia and start to pray for rain later, whereas that statement of the mishna is for them, the residents of Eretz Yisrael. The Gemara asks: What is different with regard to us in Babylonia that we do not request rain immediately after Sukkot? The reason is that we still have fruit in the field. Therefore, we do not want rain to fall. However, they, the inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael, also have pilgrims who need to travel for a significant time to reach their homes after the Festival, and they do not want it to rain on them.

The Gemara answers: When Rabbi Yoḥanan said this ruling in the mishna, he was referring to the period when the Temple is not standing; therefore, in Eretz Yisrael, one can immediately request rain. The Gemara comments: Now that you have arrived at this answer, one can say that both this statement and that statement are for them, i.e., those in Eretz Yisrael. And yet, it is not difficult, as this statement here, that one waits before requesting rain, applies at the time when the Temple is standing, while the ruling there, that one requests rain right after the Festival, is referring to the time when the Temple is not standing.

The Gemara asks: And we in the Diaspora who have two Festival days, how do we act with regard to beginning the mention of rain, given the uncertainty concerning the Eighth Day of Assembly, which might in reality be the seventh day of Sukkot? The Gemara answers that Rav said: One begins to mention rain in the additional prayers of the eighth day, the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly. And one temporarily ceases this practice on the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, continuing through the evening and morning prayers of the ninth day, the second day of the Eighth Day of Assembly. And finally one again resumes mentioning rain in the additional prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah.

Shmuel said to those who reported Rav’s explanation to him: Go out and tell Abba, referring to Rav by his name, the following objection: After you have rendered the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly sanctified, shall you defile it by treating it as though it is not a Festival day? Rather, Shmuel said (10a): One begins to mention rain in the additional prayers and also mentions it in the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly, and temporarily ceases this practice on the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, continuing through the evening and morning prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah. And finally, one again resumes mentioning rain in the additional prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah.

Traduction : The William Davidson digital edition of the Koren Noé Talmud, with commentary by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz.

Taanit 4b explores rabbinic debates on when to mention versus request rain in prayer, contrasting Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Eliezer's rulings on Sukkot and Passover.